Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: It's Saturday morning in Italy and you're listening to the Magic Towns Italy podcast.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Magic Towns Italy podcast. Italy. Sun drenched piazza's ancient ruins, amazing food, and that irresistible charm of la Dolce Vita.
[00:00:14] Speaker A: It's a dream destination for so many people.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: But for anyone actually thinking about living there beyond the two week vacation, that dream can often collide with a less glamorous reality. Let's talk about over tourism.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the crux of it. While Italy consistently ranks among the world's top tourist destinations, which is fantastic, of course, this popularity creates some pretty significant, often hidden challenges for residents. We're going to use original data from a recent article on magic towns Italy. It's called Paradise. 16 Italian towns that escape over tourism. And they develop some really neat tools. Oh yeah, there's a touristy index, basically measures how packed a place is with visitors. And a quality of life index looking at livability.
We'll use these because honestly, the sheer number of visitors can completely change daily life.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: It strains resources, right?
[00:01:08] Speaker A: Totally. And it can even erode that authentic character that drew people there in the first place. So our mission today is to pinpoint where overtourism hits hardest. But more importantly, highlight some incredible towns that still offer that amazing Italian culture, community and quality of life just away from the crowds.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Perfect for expats, retirees, anyone looking to actually live there, not just visit for a few days.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: And this problem, it's not just a vague feeling of, oh, it's a bit busy. The article has some hard numbers, doesn't it? Here's a staggering statistic. 70% of international tourists in Italy, they flock to just 1% of its territory.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Wow, 70% in 1%. Just think about that. I know. It means in places like Venice, you're not just, you know, a tourist in a crowd. You're often one of maybe 100 others for every single resident jostling for space in what used to be someone's quiet neighborhood square.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: And you can probably guess the usual suspects. Venice, Florence, the Amalfi coast, Sancterre. Beautiful, yes, absolute breathtaking places.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: But that beauty comes at a price for locals, a steep price. There's a quote in the article from a local activist about Naples that really hits home. What does it say?
[00:02:20] Speaker A: The historic center of Naples is dead. Those streets aren't neighborhoods anymore. They've become playgrounds, open air shopping malls. It's quite powerful.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: That really paints a picture. But can you break down, like in practical day to day terms?
[00:02:32] Speaker A: Sure. Well, think about those compact medieval town layouts when you cram thousands of extra people in, everything gets strained. Public transport, waste collection, basic infrastructure.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Just getting around. Must be a nightmare sometimes.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. It's not just inconvenient, it fundamentally changes the place. And the daily struggles are real. Imagine trying to just run errands. There was a story from a Corriere della Serra reporter about Lake Garda.
[00:02:56] Speaker B: Oh yeah, In Cervione. He describes spending 40 minutes just looking for parking. 40 minutes.
[00:03:01] Speaker A: And then paying €7 for an ice cream cone.
[00:03:04] Speaker B: €7. Okay. That's not the relaxed evening passeggiata you picture, is it? That leisurely walk? Definitely not. And beyond the traffic and queues, there's whole short term rental issue. Ah, the Airbnb effect.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: You got it. In some parts of Naples, the article says there's literally one bnb for every three homes. Think about that density.
[00:03:24] Speaker B: That's incredible. And it's hollowing out the fabric of the city, as they put it. Rents go up, local tenants get pushed out. It really destabilizes communities. But I guess some people would argue, you know, that these rentals bring in money for homeowners, especially if the local economy isn't great. Or maybe give tourists some more local experience.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: It's a fair point. People do make that argument. But the data and the lived experience in many places suggest the cost to the actual resident community often outweighs those benefits. You see the extreme end of this in Venice.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Fewer locals living there now, right?
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Way fewer. The historic center has under 50,000 residents left. It's a stark reminder as locals can't afford to live there. The city just dust. It slowly depopulates. It becomes more like a museum than a living, breathing city.
[00:04:11] Speaker B: Losing its soul, essentially.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: That's a good way to put it. And then there are the seasonal swings.
[00:04:15] Speaker B: Right? The Jekyll and Hyde thing.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: Exactly. Packed solid in summer, then eerily quiet in winter when the tour buses leave, shops close, services dwindle, leaving year round.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: Residents kind of high and dry.
[00:04:25] Speaker A: Totally. So it raises a big question for anyone thinking of moving, whether you're an expat or retiring there, what kind of daily life are you really signing up for in these famous spots? Often it means losing that authentic character, that sense of community.
[00:04:40] Speaker B: Okay, so if the Venice stream is maybe more like a crowded reality, how does Magic Towns Italy actually measure this? And crucially, what does it mean for your wallet?
[00:04:49] Speaker A: Well, they use that touristy index I mentioned, looking at visitor numbers relative to the resident population, and some of the figures are just extreme.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: How extreme?
[00:04:58] Speaker A: Take a tiny alpine Village like Sesto in Su Tyrol, that South tyrol, population about 1,900 people. Visitors in 2023, around 180.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Wait, that's like nearly 100 tourists for every resident over the year.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: 99, basically, yeah. Or Rio Maggiore in Cinque terre, population around 1,300, but over 100,000 visitors a year. That's about 82 tourists per resident. In Santadoro in Sardinia, 1200 locals, about 110,000 visitors. That's almost 89 tourists per local. These numbers just show the immense pressure on local infrastructure, water, waste and prices.
[00:05:36] Speaker B: Not just the total number either, is it? It's when they all arrive at once.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Exactly. It's the concentration during peak season that really overwhelms things. It's not just crowded streets, it's the town's actual capacity. It's water, its waste system, its ability to maintain its charm, getting swamped.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: The human cost is clear. But what about the money side? You mentioned the link between tourism and property costs.
[00:05:57] Speaker A: Oh, it's sharp, undeniably sharp. These super touristy places often have sky high property prices. Homes become vacation rentals or investments, pricing out locals and frankly, most expats too.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: Give me some examples. How high are we talking?
[00:06:11] Speaker A: Okay, look at Capri. Average home prices around €10,000 per square meter.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: €10,000?
[00:06:17] Speaker A: Yep. More than double the average for the province. Positano, Amalfi. You're looking at 7,000 to 10,000 per square meter, easily. That's like big global city prices.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: And Cortina, with the Olympics coming.
[00:06:28] Speaker A: Cortina d'. Ampezzo. It surged to Parisian levels. Average around 12,000 Euro per square meter. Prime spots hitting over 20,000.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: Okay, that's inaccessible for most people.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: How does that compare to, say, a more normal Italian town?
[00:06:43] Speaker A: It's a huge contrast. More typical towns are usually in the low thousands per square meter. Maybe 1,500 Euro, 2,000, something like that.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: So that Capri price, 10,000 Euro. Are there any local rules trying to manage this or is it just the market running wild?
[00:06:58] Speaker A: It's mostly market forces, unfortunately. Some cities, like Florence, are trying to limit short term rentals, but it's a massive uphill battle.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: And the bigger picture?
[00:07:07] Speaker A: It means a huge cost of living premium. Not just housing, but everything. Even your daily coffee. And sadly, that drives depopulation in these famous towns, which makes them less authentic for everyone in the long run.
[00:07:20] Speaker B: It's a vicious cycle.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: It really is. The data clearly shows this trend. As tourist density goes up, property prices follow suit. It's a Whole economic shift where only tourism businesses really thrive.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Okay, so if the postcard places are maybe not the best for living, where can you find that rich culture in history without the crush? You mentioned two categories, right?
[00:07:40] Speaker A: The first category includes towns that are actually quite well known, maybe even famous in their own right. But they've managed to stay relatively livable. They aren't total hidden gems yet, but they're definitely not the overwhelmed hotspots.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: What makes them different?
[00:07:54] Speaker A: Often they have their own strong local economies. Maybe a big university or some industry that keeps them vibrant all year round, not just when tourists are there. They tend to be more affordable, feel more authentic, and just offer a better day to day experience for residents.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: Okay, let's hear some examples.
[00:08:13] Speaker A: We'll take Padova in the Veneto region. It's only 30 minutes from Venice by train.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: Right? I know. Padova Historic University. Giotto's Chapel.
[00:08:20] Speaker A: Exactly. One of Europe's oldest universities, founded in 1222. The Scriveni Chapel. Amazing squares like Prato de la Valle. But when you're there, it feels lived in. You see locals enjoying the cafes, the markets.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: Fewer tourists than Venice, I assume.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: Way fewer. It gets about 770,000 visitors a year, which sounds like a lot, but compare that to Venice's 5.6 million. So Padova has this easygoing vibe.
Plus, median home prices are around €2,400 per square meter, much less than Venice. And it scores well on quality of life, especially for transport and healthcare.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: What else? How about Trieste, way up in the northeast corner? It's a really unique city.
[00:09:00] Speaker B: Austro, Hungarian influence. Right?
[00:09:01] Speaker A: That's it. It was the main port for the empire. So you have this grand Habsburg architecture, famous old coffee houses. Feels quite different from other Italian cities. It gets around 480,000 tourists a year.
Pretty moderate for a city its size. So it feels peaceful even in peak season.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: And quality of life, exceptionally high.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: It scored 90 out of 100 on our QOL index. Great balance of city life and nature. You've got the karst hills right behind it, the sea in front of the. And it's surprisingly affordable. Median homes around €2,500 per square meter.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: Okay, one more from this category. Maybe something Renaissance, but not Florence.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Ferrara in Emilia. Romagna. It's a gem. Seat of the Estacorte, so it has elegant palaces, a cool moated castle, and these amazing medieval walls you can walk or bike on. 9km worth. The whole historic center is UNESCO listed.
[00:09:54] Speaker B: But not swamped with tourists.
[00:09:55] Speaker A: Nope. Only gets about 230,000 visitors a year. It has a lovely, easygoing, almost small town feel, despite its history. They call it the city of bicycles. Very bike friendly. Quiet, cobbled streets and property. Really affordable properties. Average about 1,400 Euro per square meter.
[00:10:14] Speaker B: Okay, the article mentioned a few others briefly too, didn't it? Cessonatico 2 with the canal.
[00:10:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Charming port designed by Da Vinci. QOL83, real estate, about 3,050 per square meter. And even Gassola, which is actually one of Italy's most visited beach spots. But the article notes it manages the high numbers well. Good organization. QOL78 prices around 4300 per square meter.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: That's a great list. I'm curious though, thinking about Servia versus Gasolo. Both manage tourism well, you said, but what's the feel like? What's a typical day like in each? Beyond the numbers?
[00:10:50] Speaker A: That's a really good question. Sertia has this strong focus on sustainability. Its pine forest, its salt pins. It attracts maybe a more eco conscious visitor, Someone looking for nature alongside the beach. It feels calmer year round.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: Now, for those looking to really get away from it all, to blend in, find somewhere properly off the beaten track. This next category is the hidden gems, right?
[00:11:13] Speaker A: Exactly. This is where it gets really interesting for people wanting to integrate. We're talking towns that are genuinely not on the typical tourist map.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: Like really under the radar.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: Totally. Fewer than one or two tourists per resident per year. But and this is key, they have incredibly high livability scores. QOL often 93 to 95 out of 100 plus distinctive local charm. And they're remarkably affordable. This is where you find that genuine Italian small town life without the crowds.
[00:11:42] Speaker B: Okay, I'm excited. Where do we start?
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Let's go to Marche. Ascoli. Piceno. Ever heard of it?
[00:11:46] Speaker B: Vaguely, but tell me more.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: It's a medieval city, about 46,000 people, nestled between the Apennine Mountains and the Adriatic coast. The whole place is built from this beautiful travertine stone. It just glows. And its main square, Piazza del Popolo. Honestly, it's often called one of Italy's most beautiful. Pure Renaissance elegance.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: Sounds amazing. Tourist numbers.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: This is the kicker. Only about 38,000 tourists a year. That's basically zero crowding. You'll feel like you have the place to yourself most of the time.
And living there, High quality of life, low crime, excellent healthcare reported, lots of cultural events, markets twice a week. Plus you can be hiking in the mountains or swimming in the Adriatic in under an hour.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: Okay, the catch, property prices, no catch.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: It's a bargain. Around €1,300 per square meter on average. It really delivers that Bolcevita dream.
[00:12:38] Speaker B: Incredible. Okay, where next?
[00:12:39] Speaker A: Lets head northwest to Piemonte. Cuneo. Mid sized city, about 55,000 people. Often overlooked by foreigners.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: What's special about Cuneo?
[00:12:48] Speaker A: Location, location, location. It sits right at the foot of the Maritime Alps, so you have these spectacular mountain views. It feels prosperous, but quiet. It has this elegant main street lined with arcades. A huge central square that's buzzing on market days. And the food. Piemonte is famous, right? Chocolate chestnuts, slow food, movement.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: Sounds lovely. Quality of life. Tourists.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: Qol is impressive. 93 out of 100. Low pollution, low crime, good schools and healthcare. Tourists very few. Only about 55,000 annual visitors. Lots of parks, bike paths, good cultural calendar. And you're only about 20 kilometers from the French Riviera if you fancy a day trip.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: And affordability?
[00:13:31] Speaker A: Highly affordable real estate. Around €1,500 per square meter.
[00:13:35] Speaker B: Wow. Okay, let's head south now. Sicily.
[00:13:38] Speaker A: Yes, Ragusa. Right in the heart of Sicily's baroque region. It's a stunning hill town rebuilt after a massive earthquake. It's actually split in two. The upper modern town and the older part, Ragusa Ibla, which is UNESCO listed.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: Baroque architecture. Maze like streets.
[00:13:53] Speaker A: Exactly. Golden stone palaces, incredible churches perched on the hillside. The views are so cinematic. They actually filmed the Inspector Montalbano TV series there.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: Oh, cool. Is it packed because of the show?
[00:14:06] Speaker A: Surprisingly, no. It gets a modest 163,000 tourists a year. So it really keeps its local feel and it shines for livability. Qol score of 91. Great air quality, low stress. People talk about the tight knit community.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: I like the sound of that.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: There's a local saying, we have watches, but in Ragusa we don't have time.
[00:14:25] Speaker B: Huh? I love that we have watches, but in Ragusa we don't have time. That says it all, doesn't it? Captures that slower pace so many people are looking for.
[00:14:33] Speaker A: It really does. And the cost of living is very reasonable. Median property price around €1,400 per square meter.
[00:14:41] Speaker B: Fantastic. Any other quick mentions from this hidden gems list?
[00:14:44] Speaker A: Definitely. Forli in Emilia Romagna, rich in art and history. Less than one tourist per resident. Incredible. QOL of 95 property, 1,550 per square meter. Conigliano in Venido, it's the Prosecco capital, surrounded by UNESCO Vineyards. QL95 homes, 1750 per square meter.
[00:15:05] Speaker B: The Prosecco capital. Nice.
[00:15:07] Speaker A: And Citadella, also in Veneto, it's this amazing medieval walled town where you can walk the entire circuit of the 13th century walls, very few tourists. QOL93 properties, average 2,500 per square meter. All just incredible places offering genuine Italian life.
[00:15:27] Speaker B: I'm really drawn to that idea of fourly rich history. But fewer than one tourist per resident. How do towns like that manage to stay so under the radar? Is it just location?
[00:15:36] Speaker A: It's often a mix of things. Sometimes they are, yeah, a bit off the main tourist drag. Maybe not right on the high speed train line connecting Rome and Florence. So less convenient for a quick day trip.
[00:15:47] Speaker B: Makes sense.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: Other times they just haven't been heavily marketed internationally. Or maybe their treasures are more spread out, less concentrated in one single must see spot. That's easy for tour groups. They require a bit more effort, a bit more intention to discover.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: Which is precisely why they stay authentic for the people living there.
[00:16:07] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: So wrapping this up, what does this all mean for you, the listener, if you're dreaming of that authentic Italian life?
[00:16:14] Speaker A: Well, I think the main takeaway is that while Italy's famous spots are famous for a reason, they're captivating. They often come with significant trade offs if you actually want to live their day to day.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: Overtourism isn't just an inconvenience, it can really strain the place and change that La Dolce Vita dream into something quite different. Maybe quite frustrating for residents, but the.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: Striking thing is Italy's sheer variety. As these examples show, there are so many incredible places offering history, beauty, a livable scale and that authentic life without the downsides of mass tourism.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: Whether you're drawn to a lively mid sized city like Padova or Trieste, or a real hidden gem like Ascoli, Pacino or Cuneo.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: Right. The data and insights from Magic Towns Italy, like their touristy index and quality of life scores, offer a really powerful starting point to find your ideal balance.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: So the final thought for listeners, ultimately.
[00:17:06] Speaker A: Finding your perfect Italian town, your Magictown. It's a deeply personal journey. We really encourage you to explore further. Use tools like the Magic Town's Italy Town Explorer. You can filter by climate, cost, healthcare, all sorts of things.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: And read those expat guides too. Get the firsthand perspective.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Absolutely. Dive into those for practical tips and real experiences.
[00:17:29] Speaker B: Because it seems like with just a bit of research, beyond the obvious postcard views, Italy's vast 99% untapped territory holds incredible opportunities. Opportunities to really live La Dolce Vita not just as a visitor passing through, but as a welcome member of a real local community.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: Well said. Keep exploring and you really can find your perfect Italian home. Thank you for listening to the MagicTowns Italy podcast.
Head to MagicTowns.it for hundreds of Italian city profiles made especially for expats and retirees.
Magictowns Italy is the home of the Town Explorer with dozens of filters for healthcare, quality of life, proximity to airports and much more. Use the Discount code podcast for 20% off an annual subscription.
