[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: In Italy. And you're listening to the Magic Towns Italy podcast.
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Anna, while we're talking about coffee today, are you feeling sleepy on this fine Saturday morning?
[00:00:14] Speaker C: Yeah, a little bit actually.
But now breakfast is also getting more expensive.
[00:00:20] Speaker A: You can't tell me you can't afford breakfast anymore, Anna.
[00:00:23] Speaker C: Like now it's almost €1.50 an espresso.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: Is that a lot? There's a lot of people here that don't know that it's a lot or not a lot.
[00:00:34] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a lot. Before it was like one euro like he four years ago.
So yeah, there are probably some Americans laughing.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it is still really very cheap as far as it has gone in Italian coffee. But yeah, it has become more expensive and I'm interested in knowing what you have for breakfast in the morning. Do you go to the bar for breakfast?
[00:00:57] Speaker C: Sometimes, but not that much.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: You're a breakfast at home lady.
[00:01:03] Speaker C: Yes, because I can experiment with different toppings.
I like it. I usually have porridge, that's why.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: Okay. You're about the only Italian that has porridge. I have porridge also quite often though. You know, I lived in England for a while, lived in Denmark for a while, so those are orange countries. I would say most Italians don't really have breakfast. Most Italians have a very light breakfast or they just have a little quick.
[00:01:29] Speaker C: Coffee at the bar and some biscuits.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Maybe, which is why the price of espresso is so important.
[00:01:34] Speaker C: Yeah, probably.
There's the. Also the brioche culture.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: I would say that's a standard Italian breakfast. Standing at the counter at the bar, one espresso and maybe half a glass of water and a croissant without sitting.
[00:01:51] Speaker C: So it's really weird because we have this culture of being relaxed, like chilling, talking, this idea of Italy. But at the same time it's not true.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: We're not a culture of taking it easy. Breakfast is like a 30 second affair at the bar.
[00:02:07] Speaker C: It depends. I think it depends on the region. It depends on your habits.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: So you brought to my attention that the price of coffee has skyrocketed.
[00:02:19] Speaker C: Yeah, it was about €1 and 20 in 20, 24. And now it's €1.40. It could increase even more, reaching €2.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: Are Italians upset about this?
[00:02:33] Speaker C: Italians are really upset about that. Because most Italians always have that one second espresso before work, even three times a day. I don't think that many people will continue to have that coffee if it's €2.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: That is true. And do we know why prices are going up so much? Aside from the fact that everything seems to be going up these days, basically.
[00:02:59] Speaker C: Because of climate issues in major coffee producers like Brazil, Vietnam, Colombia, higher energy transportation costs, of course, and also rising costs for other ingredients, like milk for cappuccino, the butter for croissant. So that's why.
[00:03:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I have to say I'm a cappuccino man, because it's hard. It's harder to do it well at home. So I prefer the barista to do it for me. And I have noticed that in some cases it has been going up. It used to be like €1 20 when you were 30, a cappuccino. And I was like, when you were 60. I didn't see in €2 cappuccino.
[00:03:40] Speaker C: No, actually, I think €2 50 is like the normal.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: No, because you're a Milan girl, but where normal people live, I'd say €60, €70 is where you should be paying now for a cappuccino.
[00:03:53] Speaker C: That's a lot.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: Not according to you. If you add it up, a little breakfast standing at the counter, which was maybe three euro a few years ago, is now pushing four or five euro. That is a big difference for a person.
It's a 40, 50 Euro difference over a month.
[00:04:12] Speaker C: Do you think that it's worth it.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: To have breakfast at the bar?
[00:04:16] Speaker C: Yeah, for the experience. Like, do you like having it?
[00:04:19] Speaker A: Well, I think it's part of the ritual. Maybe our listeners don't understand this. Most Italians on a work day have consumed the whole thing, the coffee and the croissant, if they have one, standing at the counter. And actually, I have a funny story. I literally just moved to London. I was like 23, 24. I went to the Royal Albert Hall. They were doing the proms.
And during the intermission, I walked into the bar and I walked to the counter and I asked the barman if we could give you an espresso. And the guy looked at me like, are you just gonna stand there? I said, yeah, yeah, I'll stand here and drink my espresso. So he brought me the espresso, and I quickly realized that I was the only person standing at the counter in the entire place. So that's how ingrained it is for an Italian to drink your coffee at the counter. I had learned from that experience. I was young and green behind the ears.
But you should imagine, as a foreigner, that for us is the opposite. So it's entirely normal. You walk into any bar, walk straight to the counter and order that coffee. Plus there's a little trick that I'M going to tell later on in the podcast about going to the counter, but going back to what you were saying, Anna, so if the price of energy, the price of whatever in flam countries is jacking up the price of coffee, then why is it that there's a massive difference regionally within Italy?
[00:05:47] Speaker C: I wouldn't say that it's about north and south of Italy, it's just about certain cities. Of course, if you're going to a smaller city, the prices will be really similar to, I don't know, the prices of Catanzaro, for example.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: But it is a fact that Catanzaro is in Calabria and one euro in Boltaro, which is at the border with Austria, is a €40.
[00:06:11] Speaker C: Bolzano is known for being really expensive city. Same for, for trend.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: Actually, I'm seeing in the data that Pescara, which is in Abruzzle, Bari, which is in Puglia, and Naples, which is also in the south, they all have the largest increases.
4% plus 33% plus 29%.
[00:06:31] Speaker C: That's kind of scary, especially for Naples. There is even a stronger coffee culture there.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: So anyway, let's put it into global context, shall we? So the two euro capucine, how much would you pay for that in New York, London or, you know, other countries in Europe?
[00:06:51] Speaker C: In New York, between $5 and $7.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: That's crazy.
[00:06:55] Speaker C: Yeah, it's crazy. I actually love Americano.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: Americano people don't know just how many different types of coffee.
[00:07:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: So if you had a friend that comes from abroad and told you what they always say, oh, Italian espresso, it's too little coffee, what would you tell them?
[00:07:15] Speaker C: I really, really love Americano because it doesn't last a second like espresso, and it gives you more energy, you know, and it lasts longer. That's why.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: What's the price of an Americano? It's like 30 cents more than a. Than an espresso, right?
[00:07:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I think so. But everyone knows Americano.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: I don't think listeners in France, Germany and America know about Americano.
[00:07:41] Speaker C: I don't think that is as good as the American one. It's different.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: I don't know. We should have a little competition where we blindfold people and ask them to taste that. What about cappuccino? How do you feel if someone has a cappuccino after 11 o' clock in the morning?
[00:07:58] Speaker C: I mean, you can drink it as long as you're. You're not having lunch with it. That's weird.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: Would you feel strange walking into a bar and Ordering a cappuccino at 3 o' clock in the afternoon, you think it's normal?
[00:08:10] Speaker C: I love to have my cappuccino in the afternoon as it's like having a break.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: I would say that this is a controversial opinion and most Italians find it very weird to have cappuccino at any other time than.
[00:08:24] Speaker C: Than breakfast for anyone. What's the difference, Luca, between cappuccino and cafe latte?
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Oh, I know the difference. The texture.
Cappuccino is frothy and cafe latte is just milk.
[00:08:38] Speaker C: It's so sad. I hate it.
[00:08:40] Speaker A: I tell you what, it reminds me of old people. Because that's a classic, you know, that's what grandmas have for breakfast. Cafe with a bit of brain.
You're too young to remember this. Okay. Macchiatoni is just.
[00:08:53] Speaker C: It's just a macchiato with more milk.
[00:08:57] Speaker A: Our listeners don't know what a coretto is.
[00:08:59] Speaker C: You should tell them it's just coffee with alcohol.
[00:09:04] Speaker A: Schnapps.
[00:09:04] Speaker C: I don't like it.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: Grappa.
[00:09:07] Speaker C: You like it? You seem to like it.
[00:09:09] Speaker A: No, I don't like it. But it's something that a lot of people like it. Like part of the country. A lot of people like it.
[00:09:16] Speaker C: I associated with old people playing cards and the bar.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: Exactly. People going out of the bar, getting drunk, drinking coffee. You have to help me. I've never heard of Marino.
[00:09:27] Speaker C: Marino. It's like a macchiato with cocoa powder.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: People sometimes have cappuccino with cocoa powder.
[00:09:34] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm not a huge fan. I prefer to put cinnamon in it.
[00:09:40] Speaker A: You're a fan of modern ways? I don't think traditional Italians will approve of you.
[00:09:44] Speaker C: But I've tried egg coffee in Vietnam and that is, even if I'm Italian. That is my.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: The top.
[00:09:54] Speaker C: Yeah, the top.
[00:09:56] Speaker A: I really like Greek coffee. Simply coffee cooked on the stove inside the pot. They normally put cardamom seeds in. In the coffee. Then again, you can read your future in the. In what's left on the cup.
[00:10:08] Speaker C: That's so interesting.
Have you done that?
[00:10:11] Speaker A: I can't remember what this Greek woman told me. If I can be honest with you, it was many years ago.
[00:10:16] Speaker C: I think I would be scared of doing that. I don't know.
[00:10:18] Speaker A: Maybe she told me I would lose my memory and that's why I can't remember. Shall we talk about a few tricks to make it easier for our listeners to have the coffee they like without upsetting the locals?
[00:10:30] Speaker C: So the first rule is not having a cappuccino while you're eating something, not.
[00:10:36] Speaker A: Having coffee while you're eating something.
[00:10:38] Speaker C: We are talking about lunch, dinner, those things. It's always after that.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: You saw a scene not long ago, if I remember correctly, of people ordering coffee and wine at the same time.
[00:10:51] Speaker C: Yeah, that was unusual.
[00:10:53] Speaker A: Where were those people from?
[00:10:55] Speaker C: Ireland. It was like around 5, 10am express.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: Rum and wine together. The Irish are courageous. We'll give them.
I have a tip right on the tip of my tongue.
[00:11:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: The price of coffee standing up versus coffee sitting down.
[00:11:15] Speaker C: Usually you pay more when you're sitting at the table.
[00:11:21] Speaker A: Normally, the price of coffee at the counter is if not regulated. There are some local benchmarks that coffee shops cannot exceed. So the price standing up is generally very consistent between upmarket and just normal establishments. I. I remember I went to the Cafe Gadget not too long ago, and when I got in, the waiters were doing everything to make me sit down, but they just walked straight to the counter and they had a.
An espresso at this beautiful place where you pay like 7 or 8 Euro for a coffee if you sit down for a Euro 40. So that one trick, drink at the.
[00:11:57] Speaker C: Counter, save some money, especially in big cities.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: What about other types of coffee? We have those in Italy. Barley coffee, ginseng coffee.
[00:12:07] Speaker C: Oh, I love that. That's my favorite one.
[00:12:10] Speaker A: Oh, you said it's your favorite for like five things during this fall, so abroad.
[00:12:15] Speaker C: My favorite one, as I said, is egg coffee. In Italy, macchiato is the classic one.
Like, it's a little bit more cozy than espresso. Then there's. Yeah, ginseng.
[00:12:29] Speaker A: It's a little sweeter.
[00:12:31] Speaker C: Yeah, it's sweeter. You don't like it?
[00:12:33] Speaker A: I really like barley coffee. No one knows about it outside. You don't like Cafe Doll?
[00:12:38] Speaker C: Actually, I never try it.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: Your parents never give you cafe Dolls are growing up. It has no caffeine. I love barley coffee. Barley coffee as well as coffee made with chicory. Chicory coffee. I ever tried that.
No. Anna, we need to open your mind. They're all very cheap coffee substitutes. They became popular during fascism when Italy was subjected to sanctions and therefore we could no longer import coffee. So you could say the barley coffee and Nutella have something in common in that they became popular because we're missing cocoa and coffee. So we had the hazelnuts and we had barley.
That's how we started.
[00:13:18] Speaker C: That's interesting.
[00:13:19] Speaker A: There's something else that was born under fascism that became very popular.
[00:13:24] Speaker C: The mocha.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Yeah, the stovetop coffee maker.
[00:13:28] Speaker C: I like it because it gives you like more time to have breakfast, start the day. I like that moment.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: It gives you more time because you have to wait for the coffee to burn. Yeah.
[00:13:39] Speaker C: And also I love the sound when it comes out.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: Just going back to the price of coffee. The price of coffee went up 20, 30% over three or four years. And this makes people very upset, but it's still pretty cheap. What's the big deal for Italians?
[00:13:56] Speaker C: Wages in Italy haven't grown in 20 years.
So that's why many people are complaining about that. Because if you're having even 1, 2, 3 per day, that's a lot. I think that the problem is that this tradition will disappear because no one wants to pay that much.
[00:14:20] Speaker A: So we'll see fewer people at the bar. Still, a word of encouragement to our listeners. We're not saying that coffee in Italy has become, in absolute terms, expensive, certainly more affordable than in the Anglo Saxon world.
[00:14:34] Speaker C: It's the same price that you will pay in Spain or France.
[00:14:38] Speaker A: Still, if you see fewer Italians at the bar, you know the reason why.
We're very keen to hear your thoughts about this little coffee drama that's brewing. Tell us if you mind paying €2 per price at the bar or if you still find that the price differs with other countries is making Italy attractive. Does it matter to you the price of coffee is going up? When deciding where to live, I usually. You are very welcome to use the Town Explorer to find some affordable areas in Italy.
[00:15:10] Speaker C: It's not just about the price of coffee itself. It's also about what it represents.
When something so simple and familiar starts to cost more, it's a reminder of how global issues can reach even the smallest aspects of everyday life.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Oh, that's a very sad thought.
[00:15:31] Speaker C: I don't want to end the podcast.
[00:15:33] Speaker A: With this guy, but after all this talking about coffee, I actually want to have a coffee myself. So maybe.
Yeah, I think I will. So I think we'll say bye to our listeners and go and brew something.
Maybe I'll have a cafe D. You can try one next time we meet.
[00:15:49] Speaker C: Yeah. Or I will watch you having my ginseng.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: Fine. I try your ginseng coffee and you'll try my barley coffee.
[00:15:58] Speaker C: Okay, I will.
[00:15:59] Speaker A: Definitely. If you have any questions about coffee or any comments about this, please write us a note. You can write to us on Instagram, you can write to us on Facebook.
Just send us your thoughts and see you next week.
[00:16:12] Speaker C: Bye.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: That's it for this week on MagicTowns Italy. You can create a free
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