[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: In Italy. And you're listening to the Magic Towns Italy podcast.
Let's dive into this week's stories.
[00:00:11] Speaker C: Welcome to the Magic Towns Italy podcast, hosted by Me Miles with Alessia. In this episode, we're diving into Italian tax.
There's this number, right? 43%. You hear it all the time when people talk about moving to Italy, especially retiring there.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, 43%. It sounds, well, frankly, terrifying if you think it applies to everything.
[00:00:35] Speaker C: Exactly. It's like this legendary beast, this crippling tax rate that supposedly takes almost half your income. It definitely spooks a lot of people.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: It really does. And honestly, it's mostly a myth, or at least it's a number that's thrown around in a way that's pretty misleading for the vast majority of expats and retirees looking at Italy.
[00:00:57] Speaker C: And that's where we're digging into this today. We've got some fantastic material here from Magic Towns Italy, Specifically an article called the myth of Italy's 43% tax rate. Really useful stuff.
[00:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a great breakdown. So our mission really is to show you how the Italian tax system actually works for individuals moving there and demonstrate.
[00:01:17] Speaker C: Why that scary 43% number just isn't the whole. What do people really end up paying? Because it's often, well, a lot more favorable than the myth suggests.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: Absolutely. So let's tackle that 43% head on. Where does it actually come from? We're talking about ERPF, right? Italy's personal income tax.
[00:01:34] Speaker C: Yeah. ERPF.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: Okay, so the 43%, it is a real rate, but it's the top marginal rate. And the key thing here is that Italy's system is progressive.
[00:01:45] Speaker C: Progressive, meaning you don't pay the same.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Rate on all your income. Your income gets divided into slices or brackets, and you pay different rates on different slices. The higher rates only apply to the higher slices.
[00:01:58] Speaker C: So the 43% isn't applied to your entire income, just the very top part.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: Just the top chunk.
There are basically three main brackets. Now, what are they? You pay 23% on your income up to €28,000. Then for the slice of income between €28,000 and €50,000, you pay 35% a.
[00:02:21] Speaker C: Jump, but still not 43%.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: Not yet. That 43% rate only kicks in for any income you earn over €50,000 per year. Just the amount above that 50 grand mark.
[00:02:34] Speaker C: Okay, let's use the example from the Source. Someone earning €60,000 a year, they're not paying 43% on that whole 60,000 are they?
[00:02:42] Speaker A: No, absolutely not. That's. That's the myth right there on that 60,000. How it works is they pay 23% on the first 28,000, then they pay 35% on the next 22,000, and only that final 10,000 earned. The income over the 50,000 threshold gets taxed at that 43% rate.
[00:03:04] Speaker C: So you calculate the tax on each slice separately and add it up.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:03:08] Speaker C: What does it come out to? The actual percentage?
[00:03:11] Speaker A: Around 30%. That's what we call the effective tax rate. It's the real average rate you pay on your total income, 30%.
[00:03:21] Speaker C: Okay, that's a huge difference from just saying Italy has a 43% tax rate.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: Massive difference. It highlights the gap between the top marginal rate, the rate on the highest slice, and the effective rate, which is what actually matters for your bottom line. Most people's effective rate is way below that top marginal rate.
[00:03:41] Speaker C: Are there other taxes layered on top of this? Local ones, maybe?
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Yeah, good point. There are regional and municipal surcharges. They add a bit on top. Usually, you know, maybe 1, 2, sometimes 3 percentage points, depending on where you live. So. So they nudge the total rate up slightly, but they don't fundamentally change that progressive picture.
[00:04:05] Speaker C: Okay, and what about people at the other end of the scale? Low earners? Is there like a tax free amount?
[00:04:10] Speaker A: Well, Italy doesn't have a single universal personal allowance like the UK for example. It achieves something similar through tax credits, specifically for employees and pensioners.
How.
[00:04:23] Speaker C: How does that work?
[00:04:24] Speaker A: These credits basically phase out as income rises, but at the low end, they create what's effectively a no tax area. The source suggests income up to around 8,000, maybe 8,500 often ends up being tax free. Because the credits wipe out the tax liability, it helps cushion low incomes.
[00:04:49] Speaker C: So recapping this first bit, the 43% is real, but only bites the top slice of inc income over 50,000. The system's progressive, so your effective rate on total income is much lower, and there's relief at the bottom end. That alone starts to dismantle the myth, doesn't it?
[00:05:07] Speaker A: It chips away at it significantly. Yeah, but honestly, that's just the standard system. Where it gets really interesting for people moving to Italy is the special tax regime.
[00:05:17] Speaker C: Ah, the special schemes. This is where Italy actively tries to attract people.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: These aren't loopholes. They are specific, legally defined tax incentives designed to draw in exp.
Retirees, workers, entrepreneurs. And they can slash your tax bill dramatically.
[00:05:32] Speaker C: Let's break them down. What are the main ones?
[00:05:34] Speaker A: First, let's Talk about how Italy taxes income from investments. Think interest, dividends, capital gains from selling shares, or maybe a second property.
[00:05:44] Speaker C: Passive income sources for many expats and retirees.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: And the key thing is this type of income often isn't subject to those progressive rates.
[00:05:54] Speaker C: So it's taxed differently. How?
[00:05:56] Speaker A: Usually it's taxed at flat rates. Rates? The most common flat rate for things like dividends and capital gains is 26%.
[00:06:05] Speaker C: 26% flat, regardless of how much investment income you have?
[00:06:09] Speaker A: Generally, yes. Whether you make 5,000 or 500,000 in capital gains, that income is taxed at 26%. And if you hold Italian government bonds, the interest is taxed even lower, just 12.5%.
[00:06:23] Speaker C: Wow. So for someone living mainly off investments, their maximum income tax rate on that income is capped at 26%.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: That's a massive difference, isn't it?
If your income comes from capital rather than work, the tax picture changes completely.
[00:06:39] Speaker C: What about rental income? Lots of people might rent out property, either back home or at Italy.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: Rental income from residential properties let out long term also has a special option. It's called the Cedularis Seca.
[00:06:53] Speaker C: Catchy name. How does that work?
[00:06:54] Speaker A: You can choose to pay a flat 21% tax directly on that rental income.
[00:06:59] Speaker C: 21% flat?
[00:07:00] Speaker A: Yes. And for certain types of contracts, like agreed low rent ones in specific areas, it can even be just 10%. Again, potentially much better than pushing your total income into higher brackets.
[00:07:16] Speaker C: Okay, so lower flat rates for investment income and rental income, that already helps a lot of people. What about those moving to Italy to work for themselves? Freelancers, small business owners?
[00:07:26] Speaker A: Ah, now we get to the regime for fritario.
[00:07:29] Speaker C: So, yeah, the flat rate scheme.
[00:07:31] Speaker A: Instead of dealing with complex profit calculations, eligible people pay a single very low flat tax. Just 15% flat rate. And get this, if you're starting a new business activity, it's only 5% for the first five years.
[00:07:47] Speaker C: 5%. How is the tax calculated? Is it on actual profit?
[00:07:51] Speaker A: Not exactly. You don't deduct your actual business expenses.
Instead, your taxable income is deemed to be a fixed percentage of your gross turnover.
That percentage varies by industry.
[00:08:05] Speaker C: So they just assume your profit margin based on your business type?
[00:08:08] Speaker A: Sort of, yes. You pay the 15% or 5% tax on that presumed income figure, which means.
[00:08:15] Speaker C: You could end up being taxed on less than your real profit.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: That can happen. It simplifies things incredibly.
Plus, the Social Security contributions you pay, we'll get to those later, are generally deductible from this presumed income base before you calculate the 15% or 5% tax.
[00:08:31] Speaker C: So who qualifies for this? Is there an income limit?
[00:08:34] Speaker A: Yes, there's a turnover limit. Currently it's €85,000 per year. If your gross revenue stays under that and you meet other conditions, you can benefit. It offers massive savings and simplification compared to the standard system for, say, consultants, freelancers, artisans, small shop owners.
[00:08:54] Speaker C: Okay, that sounds incredibly attractive for entrepreneurs. Now what if you're moving to Italy to take a job as an employee or maybe start a more standard company? Are there incentives there?
[00:09:03] Speaker A: Yes. Italy has a major incentive for attracting workers known as the impatriati regime.
It's aimed at people becoming newly tax resident in Italy, both foreigners moving in and Italians returning after time abroad.
[00:09:17] Speaker C: Impatriati, what does it do?
[00:09:19] Speaker A: It provides a significant exemption on your Italian earned income for your first five years of residency.
[00:09:26] Speaker C: How much is exempt?
[00:09:28] Speaker A: It's a 50% exemption. So you only pay the standard progressive tax on half of your qualifying employment or self employment income earned in Italy.
[00:09:40] Speaker C: 50%? So half your salary is just not taxed?
[00:09:44] Speaker A: Yes. Older versions of the rule could offer even higher exemptions, like 70% or 90% if moving to the South. But even 50% is huge.
There are also potential extensions based on having children or buying a house.
[00:10:01] Speaker C: That must slash the effective tax rate dramatically.
[00:10:04] Speaker A: It makes a massive difference. Your effective rate could easily drop into the teens or low 20s. Even if your gross salary is quite high. It makes Italy very competitive for attracting talent. One caveat the source mentioned. For employees, Social Security contributions usually still apply to the full salary, but the income tax saving itself is substantial.
[00:10:31] Speaker C: That covers a lot of ground. But what about the classic retiree people moving specifically for retirement?
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Ah, yes, the retirees. Italy hasn't forgotten them. There's a very special and very attractive regime specifically for people receiving foreign pensions.
The 7% flat tax.
[00:10:50] Speaker C: The 7% flat tax. That sounds almost too good to be true.
[00:10:54] Speaker A: It's real. But it has specific conditions. It was designed to encourage retirees to move to less populated areas, mainly smaller towns in Italy's southern regions.
[00:11:05] Speaker C: Okay, what are the conditions and what does the 7% apply to?
[00:11:09] Speaker A: It applies to all foreign sourced income. That's the amazing part. Your foreign state pension, private pensions, any income from investments held abroad, rental income from property outside Italy. Everything sourced outside Italy gets taxed at just 7% flat.
[00:11:29] Speaker C: 7% on everything from abroad. For how long?
[00:11:31] Speaker A: For up to 10 tax years. The main conditions are you need to establish your tax residency in an eligible municipality, typically one with fewer than 20,000 inhabitants located in specific southern regions. And you must not have been been an Italian tax resident for at least the five previous tax years.
[00:11:52] Speaker C: So if someone qualifies, moves to a small town in Sicily, say, and has a 30,000 foreign pension, plus maybe 10,000 in dividends from foreign stocks, their Italian tax on that 40,000 is just 7%.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Exactly. 7% of 40,000 is 2,800 per year. That's it for their Italian income tax on all that foreign income.
[00:12:15] Speaker C: That is incredibly compelling for retirees.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: It really is.
Importantly, any Italian source income would still be taxed under normal rules. But for retirees living primarily off foreign pensions and investments, it can make Italy one of the most tax attractive places in Europe.
[00:12:34] Speaker C: So putting it all together, these different schemes, they fundamentally alter the tax landscape, don't they? Especially for the kinds of income streams many expats and retirees rely on.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: They absolutely do.
They target common expatriate situations and offer very significant reductions compared to just looking at the standard IRP brackets, let alone that headline 43% rate.
[00:12:58] Speaker C: But income tax isn't the only thing people worry about. What about Social Security contributions? Inps, right?
[00:13:04] Speaker A: Right. Inps, Italy's National Social Security Institute. This funds pensions, unemployment benefits, healthcare access, maternity leave and so on.
[00:13:13] Speaker C: And the rates can seem quite high, especially if you're self measured.
[00:13:17] Speaker A: Can be? Yes. For employees, the deduction is around 9 to 10% of gross salary.
For the self employed, particularly those in the standard regime or professionals registered with specific funds, the rates can be around 25% or sometimes even higher, calculated on their taxable income. These are mandatory if you're earning income from work in Italy.
[00:13:42] Speaker C: Okay, so for workers, that definitely adds to the overall cost or burden. Who doesn't have to pay IMPS contributions?
[00:13:49] Speaker A: This is a really critical point, especially for retirees.
Many common forms of income for expats and retirees are completely exempt from Italian Social Security contributions.
[00:13:59] Speaker C: Like what?
[00:14:00] Speaker A: Foreign pensions.
If you're receiving a pension from your home country, you do not pay Italian contributions on it.
[00:14:09] Speaker C: Okay, huge for retirees. What else?
[00:14:11] Speaker A: Investment income, interest, dividends, capital gains. Whether taxed at a 26% flat rate or exempt under certain conditions, they do not attract Social Security contributions. Passive rental income from property taxed under cedillary seca. No Social Security on that either, unless it's deemed a professional business activity.
Capital gains from selling property.
[00:14:34] Speaker C: So let me get this straight. A retiree living entirely off a foreign pension, maybe some dividends from foreign stocks and rent from a property back home, they pay zero Italian Social Security Contributions?
[00:14:48] Speaker A: That's. That's typically correct. And importantly, they still usually gain access to Italy's public health care system, the ssn, either through bilateral agreements between Italy and their home country or by registering as a resident and potentially paying a relatively modest annual lump sum contribution, which is far less than ongoing INPS payments.
[00:15:09] Speaker C: That is a fundamental difference, isn't it, between someone working in Italy and someone retired there living off foreign income?
[00:15:15] Speaker A: Absolutely massive. It means for many non working retirees, their main Italian tax burden is just the income tax itself, which as we've seen, could be as low as 7% on foreign income if they qualify for that regime or subject to standard rates, but potentially offset by credits.
The lack of Social Security contributions significantly lowers the overall financial impact.
[00:15:39] Speaker C: Okay, that clarifies the Social Security picture a lot. Now, the other potential concern. Wealth taxes.
[00:15:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:46] Speaker C: Does Italy tax your worldwide assets just for being resident?
[00:15:49] Speaker A: Yes.
Italy does have taxes on certain assets held by residents, even if those assets are outside Italy. There are two main ones to be aware of.
[00:15:59] Speaker C: What do they cover?
[00:16:00] Speaker A: I've is a tax on immovable property held outside Italy. So your house back home, a holiday apartment abroad, etc. IVFA is a tax on financial assets held outside Italy. Things like foreign bank accounts, stocks, bonds, investment funds.
[00:16:17] Speaker C: Okay, wealth taxes. This sounds like it could be painful.
[00:16:20] Speaker A: The rates themselves are relatively low and crucially, there are often ways to offset them.
[00:16:26] Speaker C: Tell me more.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: On foreign property, standard rate is 1.06% per year.
[00:16:32] Speaker C: How is it offset?
[00:16:33] Speaker A: You get a direct tax credit for any equivalent property taxes you've already paid on that property in the country where it's located.
[00:16:41] Speaker C: Ah, so if you're paying property tax in, say, the United States, you deduct that amount.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Exactly. And very often the foreign property tax paid is equal to or higher than the calculated Italian IVIE, meaning the actual payable becomes zero. Plus there's a small exemption threshold. If the calculated IPIE is less than €200, you don't have to pay it anyway.
[00:17:05] Speaker C: So for many people with a home country property, they already pay taxes on ivie. Might not actually cost them anything extra.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: Precisely.
[00:17:14] Speaker C: Okay, what about financial assets like bank accounts and stocks abroad?
[00:17:18] Speaker A: The General rate is 0.2% per year on the value of the assets.
[00:17:24] Speaker C: 0.2%. That seems quite low compared to income tax rates.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: It is relatively modest. Yes.
You can also get a credit for any specific wealth taxes paid on those same financial assets in another country.
Although pure wealth taxes on financial assets are less common internationally than property taxes.
[00:17:48] Speaker C: The source gives a simulation Right. For someone with significant foreign assets, yes, it's quite illustrative.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: They modeled someone with over 1.8 million in foreign assets, a mix of property, stocks, bonds.
After calculating the IV flaudu and then applying the credits, particularly the credit for foreign property tax paid, what was the bottom line?
[00:18:15] Speaker C: The actual Italian wealth tax paid.
[00:18:18] Speaker A: It came out to less than €2,000 for the year on over 1.8 million of assets. That works out to an effective wealth tax rate of just about 0.11%.
[00:18:31] Speaker C: 0.11%. That's tiny. Again, a world away from the income tax sphere.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: It really puts it in perspective. The main takeaway on I've and I FA is yes, they exist. Yes, you absolutely must report your foreign assets accurately on your Italian tax return. Compliance is key, but the actual financial cost is often quite low due to the modest rates. And especially for property, the foreign tax credit or for the very wealthy. These can be avoided entirely if they opt for Italy's separate high net worth flat tax regime, which exempts them from EVAFE reporting and payment.
[00:19:15] Speaker C: Okay, so we've chipped away at the 43% myth from multiple angles. Progressive rates, flat taxes, special regimes, no Social Security on passive income, modest wealth taxes.
But wait, there's more, right? Deductions and credits within the standard system. Even if you are paying tax under the standard IRPF system, perhaps on Italian source income, or because you don't qualify for a special regime, there are numerous deductions and tax credits available that can significantly lower your final tax bill.
[00:19:49] Speaker A: What kind of things can you deduct or get credit for?
[00:19:53] Speaker C: Several key areas. For families with children, there's something called the Asenya Unico. It's not exactly a tax credit anymore, but a direct monthly cash payment per child, scaled based on the family's economic situation. It replace older child tax credits and provides direct support.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Okay, direct cash for kids.
What about common expenses?
[00:20:16] Speaker C: Medical expenses are a big one. You can claim a 19% tax credit on qualifying health expenses.
Doctor visits, specialists, surgeries, medications, therapies, above a very small annual deductible.
[00:20:30] Speaker A: Anything else?
[00:20:30] Speaker C: Yes, education expenses, things like nursery, primary, secondary school fees and university tuition fees qualify for a 19% credit up to certain annual limits. And interestingly, for university students studying away from their family home, you can even claim a 19% credit on their rental costs, again up to a cap.
[00:20:53] Speaker A: So this is system actively subsidizes healthcare and education through these credits.
What about housing costs, buying or renting?
[00:21:01] Speaker C: Italy is quite famous for its home renovation bonuses. You can typically get a 50% tax credit on costs for general renovations, up to €96,000. And for energy efficiency upgrades like better insulation or new heating systems, it's often a 65% credit.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: That's huge. If you buy a place that needs.
[00:21:21] Speaker C: Work, it's a major incentive. Also, for your main home, prima casa, you can deduct the interest paid on your mortgage from your taxable income up to a limit. And even renters can claim a small tax deduction, depending on their income level.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: Okay, so lots of support for housing. Any other common deductions?
[00:21:38] Speaker C: Contributions to supplementary pension funds are deductible up to a ceiling of €5,164 per year. This reduces your taxable income directly.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: Good for retirement saving.
[00:21:50] Speaker C: And then there are smaller credits for things like donations to recognized charities, expenses for dependents with disabilities, funeral expenses, vet bills over a certain threshold, even gym memberships in some cases. Individually small, maybe, but they can add up.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: And crucially, if you have foreign income tax under the standard system, Italy generally prevents double taxation, right?
[00:22:12] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. Unless you're using a specific flat tax regime like the 7% retiree scheme, which replaces this calculation for foreign income. Italy's standard rules provide a foreign tax credit for income taxes already paid in another country on income that is also taxable in Italy.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: Okay, so let's try and synthesize all of this. We started with the scary 43% myth. Why, after looking at all these elements, is the actual tax burden for most expats and retirees in Italy likely to be so much lower?
[00:22:48] Speaker C: Boils down to a combination of factors, really. First, that 43% rate only hits the very top slice of income for high earners due to the progressive brackets.
Second, significant types of income common for expats, rentals are often taxed at much lower flat rates. 26%, 21%, 12.5%. Third, Italy offers incredibly powerful special regimes. The low flat rate for fatario for freelancers and small businesses, the 50% income exemption in impatriati for new workers, and the super low 7% flat tax for qualifying retirees in the South. These offer huge discounts.
[00:23:24] Speaker A: Okay, what else?
[00:23:25] Speaker C: Fourth, crucial for retirees, especially mandatory Social Security contributions generally do not apply to foreign pensions, investment income or passive rental income. That removes a major cost layer. Fifth, the wealth taxes exist, but are at low rates and often significantly reduced or eliminated by foreign tax credits. And finally, even under the standard system, a wide array of deductions and tax credits for things like medical costs, education, renovations, mortgage interest and pension contributions.
Further, chip Away at the final tax bill, lowering the effective rate.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: And the simulation examples really drive this home, don't they? The freelancer potentially under 30% effective rate on 100,000 thanks to Forfitario.
[00:24:13] Speaker C: Yeah. Or the retiree potentially paying just 7% on all foreign income.
[00:24:19] Speaker A: And that hypothetical expat couple, they modeled one on Impatriati 1 on the 7% retiree scheme with 75,000 combined income, ending up with a total effective tax rate around 7.8%.
[00:24:33] Speaker C: Exactly 7.8% on 75,000. That's the reality these regimes can create. It's a universe away from a blanket 43%. Italy's own official statistics show most taxpayers end up with effective ERPF rates well into the teens, not the 30s or 40s.
[00:24:51] Speaker A: It really does seem conclusive that feared punishing 43% rate is largely a bogeyman, a myth.
[00:25:00] Speaker C: Absolutely. It requires understanding. Yes. You need to know which regime might apply to you, what deductions you can claim. It's complex, but the potential reward is an Italian lifestyle combined with a surprisingly attractive tax situation. Italy wants certain people to move there, and the tax code reflects that in these specific regimes.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: So proper planning and advice are key.
[00:25:23] Speaker C: Definitely. It's not about finding loopholes. It's about using the front door that the government has opened through these schemes.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: And if people listening are thinking, okay, this sounds better than I thought, I want to explore this. Seriously, where can they get reliable information and practical help, especially finding the right location and navigating the move itself?
[00:25:49] Speaker C: Magic towns. Italy is precisely that kind of resource. A search engine with incredibly detailed profiles on over 1,500 towns across Italy. You can filter by region, size, amenities, cost of living. Really explore potential locations.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: So you can research towns that might qualify for that 7% retiree tax, for example.
[00:26:10] Speaker C: Exactly. Find those towns under 20,000 inhabitants in the eligible southern regions. They can help with everything from finding and buying or renting property to handling the visa and residency permit applications, setting up bank accounts, even connecting you with English, meeting accountants who understand these tax regimes.
[00:26:29] Speaker A: That sounds incredibly helpful having that support on the ground. And didn't you mention they have an AI assistant too?
[00:26:34] Speaker C: Their magic AI assistant can answer a lot of initial questions based on all the data they have compiled about moving to and living in Italy. It's a great way to get quick answers before maybe diving deeper with their human consultants for personalized advice and services.
[00:26:50] Speaker A: Okay, so check them out for town exploration, relocation help, and that initial AI guidance.
[00:26:56] Speaker C: And of course, the standard but crucial disclaimer. While we've unpacked the general rules. Everyone's tax situation is unique. Always, always consult with a qualified Italian commercialista, a tax advisor who can look at your specific circumstances before you make any binding decisions.
[00:27:13] Speaker A: Perhaps, as we've discussed today, taking the time to understand the reality of Italian taxes is the first step towards realizing that La Dolce Vita might just come with a surprisingly sweet tax deal after all.
[00:27:31] Speaker B: That's it for this week on Magic Towns Italy. You can create a free
[email protected] and explore over 2,000 towns, including those offering the city 7% tax scheme, as well as download dozens of expat guides.
We have over 200 data points per town, more than Italy's statistics authority itself, covering everything from property prices to schools, healthcare, crime and more. If you want full access to filters and unlimited searches, upgrade to MagicTowns Premium. Use the code PODCAST for 20% off an annual plan. Thanks for listening. Our next podcast will be live on Saturday at 9:00am.
