[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: It's Saturday morning in Italy, and you're listening to the Magic Towns Italy podcast.
[00:00:08] Speaker C: Welcome to the new Magic Towns Italy podcast. Today, we're talking about the past superpower cities of Italy and what they have become today.
[00:00:16] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:00:17] Speaker C: Not Rome, not modern Milan. We're tackling this sort of profound paradox you find all over the peninsula.
[00:00:23] Speaker A: That's it. It's this idea that, you know, almost everywhere you look, you find these incredibly tranquil, picturesque place. Think lovely little towns, spots adored by expats, retirees, people looking for that quiet life, Right.
[00:00:36] Speaker C: But if you rewind the clock, those exact same spots were often, well, overwhelming global or regional powerhouses, huge influence holding sway over vast territories controlling trade routes.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: It's a really spectacular contrast, isn't it? This theme of Italy's fallen superpowers, Cities that went from, well, a massive boom to. To a relative bust, contrasting their peak size, their incredible influence with the often quite small populations they have today.
[00:01:04] Speaker C: And it's fascinating because it's not just history for history's sake, it's actually a pattern you see elsewhere, too. You know, think BL in Bulgaria or Cordoba in Spain.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: Oh, interesting parallels, definitely.
[00:01:15] Speaker C: But Italy, with its incredibly dense history, empires, republics, city states jostling for power, it just offers this amazing concentration of these kinds of places.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: So it's prime territory for this kind of exploration.
[00:01:27] Speaker C: They are genuinely fantastic hunting grounds for anyone obsessed with history, maybe even looking at real estate, because that architectural footprint of former greatness, it's often just perfectly preserved.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: Where should we start? Maybe where the wealth was first built.
[00:01:42] Speaker C: The sea sounds good. Let's begin with the titans who ruled the ways in the maritime republics.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: And we really have to start with Venice, don't we?
[00:01:49] Speaker C: Venice is the ultimate example, I think, of this dramatic contraction today, that historic center. While people talk about it being a fragile, sinking jewel. Fewer than 50,000 permanent residents now live there.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: Fewer than 50,000. That's tiny. Compared to its past, it can sometimes.
[00:02:04] Speaker C: Feel like a beautiful stage set, more than a living city in some ways. And that decline is almost unbelievable. When you look back around the year 1000, Venice was enormous. It had about twice as many people as Paris.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: Twice Paris. And by 1,400, the population was over 100,000. At that point, it was the single most populous city in Italy, a massive engine of commerce.
[00:02:26] Speaker C: Unbelievable.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: All that wealth. It funded this huge empire stretching across the Adriatic, controlling key islands like Crete, Cyprus. It was the bridge between Europe and the East.
[00:02:36] Speaker C: But the shift away from that power, it's been relentless just since the 1950s. The historic center has lost over 120,000.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: Inhabitants just since the 1950s. That kind of lost 120,000 people from a core community in just what, two or three generations?
[00:02:52] Speaker C: It's staggering. What's the real consequence of that shrinkage besides, you know, the tourist crowds? Well, the human consequence is that the remaining locals can sometimes feel a bit like relics in an open museum.
[00:03:03] Speaker A: Hmm, I can see that.
[00:03:05] Speaker C: Yeah. They're maintaining this spectacular infrastructure built for a metropolis, but the actual community structure that supported it has largely vanished. It really shows how quickly urban centers can hollow out when their economic base shifts, moving from maritime trade to land based power and then eventually industrialization elsewhere. Okay, let's move south now for maybe an even more dramatic story. An abrupt fall this time.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: Amalfi.
[00:03:28] Speaker C: Amalfi. Yes, it's truly remarkable. Today it's this tiny, picture perfect coastal town, population maybe 5,000 or 6,000, famous for its vertical beauty, that quiet pace of life.
[00:03:40] Speaker A: You'd never guess its past power.
[00:03:42] Speaker C: Absolutely not. But go back 1,000 years and the Duchy of Amalfi was a genuine maritime superpower. It dominated Mediterranean trade.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: Population estimates are huge for the time. Right? Like 50,000 to 70,000 people.
[00:03:54] Speaker C: Exactly. Packed into that small area. They were one of the very first maritime republics, actually predating the peaks of Venice and Genoa. They established trade codes, routes, real pioneers. So what happened?
[00:04:05] Speaker A: Its independence just ended abruptly. In 1137. It was conquered by its rival Pisa. And after that plagues major economic shifts, community just shrank incredibly quickly, down to a fraction of its former self.
[00:04:19] Speaker C: And here's where we see that crucial theme you mentioned, the one we'll keep coming back to. That steep decline, ironically, is what preserved its historic charm. It essentially froze the town in time because it stopped growing and never got massively redeveloped or modernized like other places.
[00:04:35] Speaker A: So today you visit and you see that perfect blend of the Arab Norman cathedral, those famous cliffside houses, that relaxed pace, the historic integrity that people love. It exists because it failed to keep playing in the big leagues.
[00:04:49] Speaker C: A great failure leading to enduring beauty. It's quite a thought.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: It really is.
[00:04:53] Speaker C: Okay, let's move inland. Let's look at cities whose giants were maybe felled not by slow economic shifts, but by, say, Roman rivalry or even outright invasion. First stop, the ancient second city of Italy, Capua.
[00:05:06] Speaker A: Capua. Founded way back 6th century BCE it genuinely rivaled Rome in prestige and wealth, especially before the Punic Wars. It was famous for its bronze work.
[00:05:15] Speaker C: Amazing perfumes, and that incredible amphitheater.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: Right, that's the one A colossal structure. Capu was a major player, but history.
[00:05:22] Speaker C: Tells us they made a huge mistake. They backed Hannibal against Rome during the Second Punic War.
[00:05:27] Speaker A: Fatal gamble. Yeah. Once Rome won that war, Capua's fortunes just reversed completely. It was punished severely. By the early Middle Ages. It was largely abandoned. And now? Now it's a pretty modest provincial town, under 20,000 people. The only thing that really screams superpower anymore is the amphitheater of Capua itself.
[00:05:49] Speaker C: Still standing.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: Oh, yes. And it's the second largest in the Roman world, size wise. Only the Colosseum in Rome is bigger. It creates this really bizarre feeling, this massive imperial structure just towering over a quiet modern town.
[00:06:03] Speaker C: That's the ultimate outsize legacy right there.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:06:07] Speaker C: Next, a different kind of tragedy, External force. The story of Aquileia and how its collapse actually led to the creation of its sort of sibling town, Grotto.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: Aquileia. This place was a Roman powerhouse back in the second century CE. Its population was pushing 100,000.
[00:06:22] Speaker C: 100,000. That's enormous. For the time.
[00:06:25] Speaker A: Huge. It was one of the largest cities in the whole Roman Empire. A critical trade hub connecting the Danube region down to the Adriatic. And also really significant as a cradle of early Christianity.
[00:06:36] Speaker C: But its wealth and location made it.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: Vulnerable, I guess, a prime target. And in 452 CE, disaster struck. It was utterly devastated. It became the first major Italian city to be sacked by Attila the Hun. A trauma it just never really recovered from, financially or structurally.
[00:06:53] Speaker C: And the human response?
[00:06:54] Speaker A: That tells the story, the survivors fled the mainland. They looked for safety in the nearby lagoons. And this movement of refugees led directly to the founding of, or at least the major growth of Grotto. Yeah. Grotto became the new seat of Aquileia's patriarch, the Bishop. That's how Grotto got the nickname the first Venice. Right. Built by refugees in the lagoon.
[00:07:17] Speaker C: That's fascinating. So that ancient catastrophe basically dictates modern tourism there.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: Now, pretty much today, Aquileia is this tiny village really focused on its sprawling UNESCO Roman ruins. Incredible mosaics. Meanwhile, Grotto is this quaint fishing village and spa resort nearby.
[00:07:33] Speaker C: And so you visit both and you get this dual picture. Flighton foundation. All born from one brutal sacking.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Exactly. It shows how urban greatness can be unmade, not slowly over centuries, but sometimes in a single terrible event, fundamentally rerouting a whole region's future.
[00:07:47] Speaker C: Incredible story.
[00:07:48] Speaker A: Right. Finally, in this ancient category, let's head south to Sicily.
[00:07:52] Speaker C: Syracuse, or Syracuse, the jewel of the Greek world.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: In Italy, its peak state. Population estimates vary, but maybe around 250,000 people.
[00:08:01] Speaker C: Quarter of a million.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: Yeah. It was the most important city in Magna Graatia. That's the term for the huge coastal area of southern Italy colonized by the Greeks. By the 5th century BC, Syracusa was genuinely rivaling Athens. Size, political clout, military might, that's serious power.
[00:08:17] Speaker C: I remember Sisera described it as the greatest Greek city and the most beautiful of them all. High praise.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: It really was the cultural and strategic heart of the whole region.
Constantly battling Carthage, later falling under Roman rule. A long and complex history.
[00:08:32] Speaker C: And today?
[00:08:33] Speaker A: Today Syracuse is a mid sized city, about 120,000 people. But the history is just intensely layered there. It's a UNESCO World Heritage site. You've got the massive Greek theater right next to ancient Roman columns and then overlaid with this elegant baroque architecture, especially in the island of Ortizia.
[00:08:53] Speaker C: So it still feels grand.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: It does, but it manages to blend that historic ambiance with a sort of comfortable, modern Italian life. It's quite a successful mix actually.
[00:09:03] Speaker C: Okay, so we've covered economic shifts, military conquests, but sometimes the force that shrinks the city is just pure unstoppable tragedy. Sienna has to be the prime example here.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Sienna, yes, it truly is the definition of arrested development. But as you say, in the most beautiful way possible.
Back in the 13th, early 14th centuries, it was incredibly wealthy. An independent city state, a fierce rival to Florence.
[00:09:28] Speaker C: Big population too, right? 50,000 or more, driving European banking.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Absolutely. A real powerhouse. Then came the Black Death, the plague. It absolutely decimated the population. Killed somewhere between 30% and maybe even 50% of everyone living there effectively died and never fully recovered from that single event.
[00:09:47] Speaker C: Never fully recovered. Think about that.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: It's a staggering demographic catastrophe. Siena didn't manage to get back to its population levels until the 20th century.
[00:09:56] Speaker C: Centuries of stagnation, hundreds of years following.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: That intense period of growth and rivalry.
[00:10:01] Speaker C: And this is that profound aha moment, isn't it? That massive long stagnation is precisely why its magnificent Gothic architecture, its medieval street plan is so well preserved.
[00:10:12] Speaker A: Exactly. The city simply didn't have the money or the people or maybe even the will to tear down the old and build the new on a massive scale.
[00:10:20] Speaker C: You can literally see it, can't you? Like the Grand Cathedral.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: That's the perfect example. It remains famously half finished. They had these incredibly ambitious expansion plans in the 1300s and the plague just stopped them dead in their tracks.
So today, that intact medieval core, the Piazza del Campo, where they run the Paleo horse race, it all exists because its growth was so brutally arrested. Its current population around 54,000. They're living inside this incredible monument to a medieval disaster.
[00:10:51] Speaker C: It's genuinely remarkable.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: Okay, let's move north a bit into the Po Valley. Cremona. A place known globally now for something much quieter than war or banking.
[00:11:01] Speaker C: Cremona, yes. Famous today as the world capital of violin making. Home of Stradivari, Amati, legendary names. But that wasn't always its claim to fame.
[00:11:09] Speaker A: Not at all. Around 1,300, Cremona was a major regional power, a big trade center. Its population swelled to roughly 80,000 people.
[00:11:18] Speaker C: 80,000. That's significant. The source mentioned that's more than its population. Even in the early 2000s, it was.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: A bustling medieval metropolis. But like so many others on our list, later centuries brought trouble, war, more plagues.
[00:11:33] Speaker C: Another plague.
[00:11:34] Speaker A: Yes. The 17th century plague hit Cremona particularly hard. Reduced the number of residents to barely 10,000 people. A catastrophic drop. By the 19th century, it had really faded into becoming a quiet provincial town.
[00:11:47] Speaker C: And today populations back up a bit.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: It's rebounded to about 70,000 now. Yeah, but still known for being this wonderfully tranquil place. It sort of hit the right notes, you could say. For people seeking a culturally rich but manageable Italian city. It's far removed from its chaotic days as a throbbing medieval power center. Its whole identity shifted, didn't it? From a commercial hub to this artistic sanctuary.
[00:12:10] Speaker C: It's another great example of how a city, once its original purpose fades, finds a new niche, Often something quieter, focused on heritage, like violin making. Okay, let's dedicate our final section to the deep south. Croton, the ancient Olympian city down in Calabria. This is an often overlooked area, but it holds some really dramatic historical contrasts.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: Crotone, or Ancient Croton, as it was known. It's a striking story today. Like you say, it's a lesser known coastal town, about 60,000 people. Definitely off the main tourist trail.
[00:12:40] Speaker C: An, but go back, way back, way.
[00:12:42] Speaker A: Back 6th, 5th centuries BCE, it was one of the absolute leading cities of Magna Gratia. Remember that Greek colonial powerhouse in southern Italy?
[00:12:50] Speaker C: And its stature comparable to the big names.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: It genuinely rivaled Athens at its peak. Population estimates put it between 50,000 and 80,000 inhabitants. Huge for the time and famous not just for intellectual life. The philosopher Pythagoras actually lived there for a while around 530 BC.
[00:13:09] Speaker C: Pythagoras lived in Croton?
[00:13:11] Speaker A: I didn't know that he did, but it was also famed for producing legendary athletes. Milo of Croton, one of the most famous Wrestlers in all of antiquity came from there. They dominated the early Olympics.
[00:13:22] Speaker C: Wow. So brains and brawn and power too.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: Absolutely. This was a city of dominance. It was powerful enough to completely destroy its wealthy neighbor city Siberis in 510 BC. Wiped it off the map.
[00:13:34] Speaker C: Ruthless. So what happened to Croton?
[00:13:36] Speaker A: The usual suspects, really. Roman conquest eventually diminished its independence, then centuries of medieval neglect. Its prominence just evaporated by the 19th century. Little more than a sleepy fishing town.
[00:13:48] Speaker C: Quite the fall from grace.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: A massive fall. But now that low profile is exactly what attracts some people. Intrepid expats, perhaps. They find that authentic southern Italian vibe. A low cost of living, no mass tourism.
[00:14:01] Speaker C: But the history is still there. Under the surface.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: It is. For the history buffs, you can still find remnants like the solitary column of the temple of Hera Licinia standing near the coast, kind of silent sentinel watching over the sea, hinting at that vanished golden age.
[00:14:17] Speaker C: Incredible. Okay, so we've looked at titans felled by economic shifts, giants brought down by invasion, prosperous states frozen by tragedy. What's the big takeaway from this massive sweep of history?
[00:14:28] Speaker A: I think it really hammers home that urban fortunes perpetually wax and and wane. It's a constant cycle. And the tranquility we see today in all these cities. Venice's shrinking core, Siena's preserved streets, Crotoni's quiet coast. It's made so much more dramatic when you set it against that backdrop of former world shaping greatness.
[00:14:48] Speaker C: That contrast is the source of their unique appeal, isn't it?
[00:14:51] Speaker A: Absolutely. These magic towns offer this amazing combination, especially for, say, the discerning history, loving travelers. Maybe an expat or someone looking to retire somewhere interesting.
[00:15:02] Speaker C: What's the combination?
[00:15:03] Speaker A: You get this spectacular historical tapestry, deep cultural riches, but often without the huge crowds, the crazy cost, or the chaos you find in a modern metropolis.
[00:15:13] Speaker C: Hmm. Which raises a really important question, something for you, the listener, to maybe ponder after this, which is, in a way, poetically speaking, the physical beauty and the architectural integrity of so many of these places. Siena is a perfect example. They were only preserved because of catastrophic loss and centuries of economic stagnation.
[00:15:33] Speaker A: That's a powerful point. When a city's enduring appeal, its modern charm, is fundamentally rooted in its failure to recover from a historical disaster. It forces you to rethink how we measure urban success, doesn't it?
[00:15:46] Speaker C: Yeah. Maybe decline isn't always just decline. Sometimes it's the source of the greatest, most enduring legacy. Definitely something to mull over. Now, if this has sparked your interest, if you want to explore these unique Italian destinations further. Maybe for travel? Maybe you're thinking about retirement or you just need practical info on relocating.
[00:16:04] Speaker A: Then you should Definitely look up MagicTowns Italy, right?
[00:16:07] Speaker C: A lot more information, expert advice, and.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: Even this interesting magic AI technology. It draws on a database curated by travel specialists, relocation experts, even legal professionals.
[00:16:19] Speaker C: So it could be a really useful tool if you're serious about exploring these places.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: Definitely worth a look. Go see how far your own history hunt can take you.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: That's it for this week on Magic Towns Italy. You can create a free
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